You guys are so kewl. I’m so megastoked that you came to the blogger’s dinner. I’m the guy who “deconverted” from the church. I’m stoked–I’m famous now–I made it on your podcast. Yippee!!
Kerry. I totally found your story *very* compelling. I *loved* it when you say “I’m glad I’m a Christian because my life would absolutely for sure be really destructive right now if I wasn’t a Christian, and Jesus has saved me from being that destructive”. I *love* to hear your story, and I want to know *more* of it. And I would love to share my story with you as well. The story about how you reconnected with a very important person in your life via myspace was extremely compelling. I loved it. I most of all loved that you *didn’t* say “and not only that, but Jesus can do this for you too … etc.” Althought I didn’t get to share my story with you at all, the fact that you didn’t say this to me shows a big willingness to hopefully connect, because my experience of Jesus has been very very different from your experience of him.
I gotta massively disagree with you guys about truth being more important than relationship. I think your take on that is … essential to that which allows/causes us, as humans, to bomb, kill, murder, rape etc, the “other”. Would love to discuss that with you further.
“lifestyle goals as a membership requirement” sounds terrifying.
There’s a little church 3 blocks up the street from us that invites 20 homeless people to sleep in their basement every night as part of a citywide initiative that distributes homeless people to various places throughout the city to sleep each night. How kewl is that. That’s about a 100 times kewler than any sunday morning worship service I ever attended. no one is trying to convert these homeless people. church people come and help make meals for them, and just hang with them a little, and then they off to sleep. that’s the sort of hear/listen/connect that attracts me. I love that you guys got out of this conference that … the pastors/churches with whom you are talking need to consider moving from “beliefism” toward … “hear/listen/connect”. that rocks. I hope they take what you have said to heart.
I hope I get to connect with you two again. thankyou for putting yourselves out there.
My wife Megs really liked the story of your tattoos, Kerry. Hope we get to see that new one after it’s colored someday.
Benjamin.
tonysteward on
November 4th, 2007 2:30 am
Hey Benjamin, so glad you found the blog! I am on my way now to check out yours.
Thanks for your comments and challenges. I probably need to revisit several of the things you brought up, they are good thoughts.
(But as conversation starters it is always fun to at least push a couple buttons )
Ton & Kerry, thanks for this podcast! I must say, though, that I totally disagree with your assessment of the demographics of the event. Specifically about the bloggers’ dinner…I know the identification of almost everybody who was there. And I only know of five people at that table who would identify as atheist or agnostic. (And two of those nontheists were not even attending the OTM Live event. They were simply atheists who we made friends with in our online dialogues and they live in Seattle, so they came to the dinner to see us.) I believe that everyone else there would call themselves followers of Jesus. Also, you weren’t the only pastors there. There were two other pastors, Josh and Karlene, at the other end of the table. I know you just didn’t know that since you didn’t get the chance to meet them.
Also, I’m blown away by your statement that you think only about 50% of the people at the conference believe in Jesus! This is my third OTM conference and have always perceived it to be overwhelmingly attended by believers in Jesus. Many of us are much more theologically orthodox than you might think. Many of us do label ourselves “evangelicals.” A small number of nontheists and seekers do attend and we are proud that they feel comfortable enough to come. But this is definitely a conference about following Jesus.
I would write more but I have to get ready for church. Anyhow, I’m not mad or offended or anything. Just wanted to add my perspective.
Also - just to elaborate a bit on the “Spaghetti God” thing. That was one person and, of course, he does not actually believe in a Spaghetti God. That was an atheist friend of Jim’s who Jim met while participating in atheist-Christian dialogue at the University of Washington. This guy had stopped in at the event to see Jim and jumped at the chance get up on stage and make fun of us crazy religious types. So we all got to experience what it feels like to be mocked. There must be something helpful we can learn from that…
oh by the way, if you wanna learn more about church of the flying spaghetti monster, check out their web site. (I think they actually have a point with the pirates thing).
Recently some Michigan Tech students were threatened and harrassed for being Pastafarians. You can read more about that here Someone there made this interesting comment: “there are people - maybe not in this particular club - who do truly believe in the FSM. Also, I want to make the point that there are plenty of Christians who are members of the Christian religion without truly believing in the deity God/Jesus.”
First, I think Rachel’s right about the count of people who didn’t believe at the bloggers’ dinner; and also that the vast majority of people at the event would say they believe in Jesus.
The strong sentiment against forms of Christianity which don’t seem to result in much transformed behavior causes the type of people who tend to be at our events to emphasize that they are followers of Jesus rather than self-identifying as ‘believers’. This is about language of conservative Christians compared to language of people at our event - it’s about how they want to be known. Just as when you say “I’m a believer (in Jesus)” you definitely don’t mean “and therefore I’m not a follower” people at our event who say “I’m a follower (of Jesus)” aren’t saying “and therefore I’m not a believer”.
That’s what I’ve noticed as I’ve talked with these folks over the last 18 months.
Second, Tony said it’s easy to answer people who object to Christianity because of Christian behavior - even Christians know they don’t behave well and they have answers why that is. I wanted to respond to that comment. You’re right that Christians have answers - and Christians are happy to accept those answers. However, when you get into the world of people who aren’t Christians, it’s not enough to have an answer. Your answer has to be more reasonable and more likely than the answer they already have.
A few years ago I began asking “Is the Christian answer why Christians aren’t better than they are the best one or is there a more reasonable better answer?” The conclusion I came to - which I realize is just my opinion and I am open to changing my mind if further evidence presents itself - is that the transformation experienced by Christians is explainable by psychological factors without any need to bring in the supernatural. People who are not Christians experience similar transformation by means of non-Christian information and experiences. If there is some evidence I missed in my 16 years of being a Christian and the 7 years since then I am happy to consider it and if appropriate reconsider my belief about what causes transformation.
I see this gap come up a lot in apologetics too. Christians will admire an apologetics book because they find the answers in it work for them. People who aren’t Christians read the same book but find the answers in it less convincing than their own answers. Christians often seem unaware of the depth and complexity and subtleties of the answers thoughtful people who aren’t Christians have. This is a reason I strongly encourage Christians to listen to people who aren’t Christians. Not because I want them to ‘lose their faith’ but because I would like them to realize that their answers often are way too simplistic. To people who aren’t Christians who have thought about why they aren’t Christians, Christian answers are often like the comments of the technical support help desk person who asks you if you did these ten things - which in fact you already tried before you called, because the last time your computer didn’t work that was what the help desk told you to do. When I have read Christian-atheist debates I often feel the atheists have anticipated where the Christians are going and they already got there and are waiting to see if the Christians have anything else they haven’t heard.
And that’s all secular reasoning; I understand that if conversion is a supernatural thing then reasoning and answers aren’t going to be THE answer anyway. Yet - if you want to prove to people who aren’t Christians that you are listening, you need answers they didn’t already answer - or you need to be aware enough to say “I don’t have anything else” instead of making them patiently listen as you go through the answers they’ve already heard which already didn’t work for them. (Which by the way is the opposite of being a good listener - because you’re putting them in the position of politely listening to you or doing something else they might not do because they want to be polite)
Both of you were respectful and curious and great listeners - I appreciate that and I enjoyed talking with you at the event. And I love these videoblogs - you guys are great at it!
tonysteward on
November 10th, 2007 1:54 am
Wow! Thanks so much for coming by guys. I am encouraged that we continue to enter into conversation with each other. Of course there are areas where we will have to just disagree. There will always be very strong tensions between truth (belief) and love (relationships). I recently saw a quote which oddly enough was from a movie poster for the upcoming movie “Lions for Lambs” it was simply:
“If you don’t stand for something, you might fall for anything.”
For me belief and love are at this intersect for what I “stand” and believe to be true and then how I am supposed to love and serve the world because of those beliefs - not despite them or despite the world. I don’t know, your statements are refreshingly challenging, thanks!
Thanks for doing this guys! Great reports and comments.
Hey Tony and Kerry.
You guys are so kewl. I’m so megastoked that you came to the blogger’s dinner. I’m the guy who “deconverted” from the church. I’m stoked–I’m famous now–I made it on your podcast. Yippee!!
Kerry. I totally found your story *very* compelling. I *loved* it when you say “I’m glad I’m a Christian because my life would absolutely for sure be really destructive right now if I wasn’t a Christian, and Jesus has saved me from being that destructive”. I *love* to hear your story, and I want to know *more* of it. And I would love to share my story with you as well. The story about how you reconnected with a very important person in your life via myspace was extremely compelling. I loved it. I most of all loved that you *didn’t* say “and not only that, but Jesus can do this for you too … etc.” Althought I didn’t get to share my story with you at all, the fact that you didn’t say this to me shows a big willingness to hopefully connect, because my experience of Jesus has been very very different from your experience of him.
I gotta massively disagree with you guys about truth being more important than relationship. I think your take on that is … essential to that which allows/causes us, as humans, to bomb, kill, murder, rape etc, the “other”. Would love to discuss that with you further.
“lifestyle goals as a membership requirement” sounds terrifying.
There’s a little church 3 blocks up the street from us that invites 20 homeless people to sleep in their basement every night as part of a citywide initiative that distributes homeless people to various places throughout the city to sleep each night. How kewl is that. That’s about a 100 times kewler than any sunday morning worship service I ever attended. no one is trying to convert these homeless people. church people come and help make meals for them, and just hang with them a little, and then they off to sleep. that’s the sort of hear/listen/connect that attracts me. I love that you guys got out of this conference that … the pastors/churches with whom you are talking need to consider moving from “beliefism” toward … “hear/listen/connect”. that rocks. I hope they take what you have said to heart.
I hope I get to connect with you two again. thankyou for putting yourselves out there.
My wife Megs really liked the story of your tattoos, Kerry. Hope we get to see that new one after it’s colored someday.
Benjamin.
Hey Benjamin, so glad you found the blog! I am on my way now to check out yours.
Thanks for your comments and challenges. I probably need to revisit several of the things you brought up, they are good thoughts.
(But as conversation starters it is always fun to at least push a couple buttons
)
Cheers!
Ton & Kerry, thanks for this podcast! I must say, though, that I totally disagree with your assessment of the demographics of the event. Specifically about the bloggers’ dinner…I know the identification of almost everybody who was there. And I only know of five people at that table who would identify as atheist or agnostic. (And two of those nontheists were not even attending the OTM Live event. They were simply atheists who we made friends with in our online dialogues and they live in Seattle, so they came to the dinner to see us.) I believe that everyone else there would call themselves followers of Jesus. Also, you weren’t the only pastors there. There were two other pastors, Josh and Karlene, at the other end of the table. I know you just didn’t know that since you didn’t get the chance to meet them.
Also, I’m blown away by your statement that you think only about 50% of the people at the conference believe in Jesus! This is my third OTM conference and have always perceived it to be overwhelmingly attended by believers in Jesus. Many of us are much more theologically orthodox than you might think. Many of us do label ourselves “evangelicals.” A small number of nontheists and seekers do attend and we are proud that they feel comfortable enough to come. But this is definitely a conference about following Jesus.
I would write more but I have to get ready for church. Anyhow, I’m not mad or offended or anything. Just wanted to add my perspective.
Also - just to elaborate a bit on the “Spaghetti God” thing. That was one person and, of course, he does not actually believe in a Spaghetti God. That was an atheist friend of Jim’s who Jim met while participating in atheist-Christian dialogue at the University of Washington. This guy had stopped in at the event to see Jim and jumped at the chance get up on stage and make fun of us crazy religious types. So we all got to experience what it feels like to be mocked. There must be something helpful we can learn from that…
oh by the way, if you wanna learn more about church of the flying spaghetti monster, check out their web site. (I think they actually have a point with the pirates thing).
Recently some Michigan Tech students were threatened and harrassed for being Pastafarians. You can read more about that here Someone there made this interesting comment: “there are people - maybe not in this particular club - who do truly believe in the FSM. Also, I want to make the point that there are plenty of Christians who are members of the Christian religion without truly believing in the deity God/Jesus.”
I have a few things I’d like to share…
First, I think Rachel’s right about the count of people who didn’t believe at the bloggers’ dinner; and also that the vast majority of people at the event would say they believe in Jesus.
The strong sentiment against forms of Christianity which don’t seem to result in much transformed behavior causes the type of people who tend to be at our events to emphasize that they are followers of Jesus rather than self-identifying as ‘believers’. This is about language of conservative Christians compared to language of people at our event - it’s about how they want to be known. Just as when you say “I’m a believer (in Jesus)” you definitely don’t mean “and therefore I’m not a follower” people at our event who say “I’m a follower (of Jesus)” aren’t saying “and therefore I’m not a believer”.
That’s what I’ve noticed as I’ve talked with these folks over the last 18 months.
Second, Tony said it’s easy to answer people who object to Christianity because of Christian behavior - even Christians know they don’t behave well and they have answers why that is. I wanted to respond to that comment. You’re right that Christians have answers - and Christians are happy to accept those answers. However, when you get into the world of people who aren’t Christians, it’s not enough to have an answer. Your answer has to be more reasonable and more likely than the answer they already have.
A few years ago I began asking “Is the Christian answer why Christians aren’t better than they are the best one or is there a more reasonable better answer?” The conclusion I came to - which I realize is just my opinion and I am open to changing my mind if further evidence presents itself - is that the transformation experienced by Christians is explainable by psychological factors without any need to bring in the supernatural. People who are not Christians experience similar transformation by means of non-Christian information and experiences. If there is some evidence I missed in my 16 years of being a Christian and the 7 years since then I am happy to consider it and if appropriate reconsider my belief about what causes transformation.
I see this gap come up a lot in apologetics too. Christians will admire an apologetics book because they find the answers in it work for them. People who aren’t Christians read the same book but find the answers in it less convincing than their own answers. Christians often seem unaware of the depth and complexity and subtleties of the answers thoughtful people who aren’t Christians have. This is a reason I strongly encourage Christians to listen to people who aren’t Christians. Not because I want them to ‘lose their faith’ but because I would like them to realize that their answers often are way too simplistic. To people who aren’t Christians who have thought about why they aren’t Christians, Christian answers are often like the comments of the technical support help desk person who asks you if you did these ten things - which in fact you already tried before you called, because the last time your computer didn’t work that was what the help desk told you to do. When I have read Christian-atheist debates I often feel the atheists have anticipated where the Christians are going and they already got there and are waiting to see if the Christians have anything else they haven’t heard.
And that’s all secular reasoning; I understand that if conversion is a supernatural thing then reasoning and answers aren’t going to be THE answer anyway. Yet - if you want to prove to people who aren’t Christians that you are listening, you need answers they didn’t already answer - or you need to be aware enough to say “I don’t have anything else” instead of making them patiently listen as you go through the answers they’ve already heard which already didn’t work for them. (Which by the way is the opposite of being a good listener - because you’re putting them in the position of politely listening to you or doing something else they might not do because they want to be polite)
Both of you were respectful and curious and great listeners - I appreciate that and I enjoyed talking with you at the event. And I love these videoblogs - you guys are great at it!
Wow! Thanks so much for coming by guys. I am encouraged that we continue to enter into conversation with each other. Of course there are areas where we will have to just disagree. There will always be very strong tensions between truth (belief) and love (relationships). I recently saw a quote which oddly enough was from a movie poster for the upcoming movie “Lions for Lambs” it was simply:
“If you don’t stand for something, you might fall for anything.”
For me belief and love are at this intersect for what I “stand” and believe to be true and then how I am supposed to love and serve the world because of those beliefs - not despite them or despite the world. I don’t know, your statements are refreshingly challenging, thanks!
By the way - I am doing ALL my blogging now over at http://www.tonystewardblog.com
Cheers!
Tony,
What’ss your process [programs, web hosts, etc.] do you use to produce your podcast? Especially the video episodes. Let me know…